Comments on: Talismans, Active Listening, and a half-time show http://john.foliot.ca/talismans-active-listening-and-a-half-time-show/ ...my perspective - without apology Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:27:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JimJJewett http://john.foliot.ca/talismans-active-listening-and-a-half-time-show/comment-page-1/#comment-52 JimJJewett Sat, 15 Aug 2009 00:26:13 +0000 http://john.foliot.ca/?p=111#comment-52 I hate to pick too hard on a particular example, but ... I still haven't seen one that explains things to me. I (a sighted person) have often tried to figure out when buses start/stop running. If that 4 to midnight is true, then I want it not only visible, but emphasized. More likely, it is true for some routes, but midnight will be long past the last departure for other routes, or at least some stops... and so the information misleads. I would hope that the fact that the bus stops are along the top row would be available from column headers; I realize that they might not be. (But this isn't obvious to a sighted reader either -- I usually figure it out from the contents of the cells.) I could see some value in saying "buses run less frequently after 7pm", but that is again something I don't take in visually. On *some* schedules, I notice the change because the color changes, and then I try to figure out why, but I would still be happier if they just told me. -jJ I hate to pick too hard on a particular example, but … I still haven’t seen one that explains things to me.

I (a sighted person) have often tried to figure out when buses start/stop running. If that 4 to midnight is true, then I want it not only visible, but emphasized. More likely, it is true for some routes, but midnight will be long past the last departure for other routes, or at least some stops… and so the information misleads.

I would hope that the fact that the bus stops are along the top row would be available from column headers; I realize that they might not be. (But this isn’t obvious to a sighted reader either — I usually figure it out from the contents of the cells.)

I could see some value in saying “buses run less frequently after 7pm”, but that is again something I don’t take in visually. On *some* schedules, I notice the change because the color changes, and then I try to figure out why, but I would still be happier if they just told me.

-jJ

]]> By: John http://john.foliot.ca/talismans-active-listening-and-a-half-time-show/comment-page-1/#comment-51 John Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:50:55 +0000 http://john.foliot.ca/?p=111#comment-51 @jJ RE: good examples - I agree, I think that this is likely the single largest reason why @summary is so poorly used today: content authors don't understand how to use it. The summary value should give a synopsis of the overall structure of the table - a visualization as it were that would likely be obvious to a sighted user. A complex bus schedule would be a good example - lots of data that the non-sighted user could process more quickly if they previously understand the table structure: <code><table summary="Service begins at 4:00 AM and ends at midnight. Intersections are listed in the top row. Find the intersection closest to your starting point or destination, then read down that column to find out what time the bus leaves that intersection."></code> However some tables are so simple that a summary might not be required: remember @summary is an optional attribute - the 'heads up' I speak of would not always require additional action: the advisory however would ask you - content author- if there "might" be a need to do so. The caption however is different, and is usually displayed on screen: it should describe the "what" of the table, and is useful for all users: an example of caption would be <code>"Schedule for Bus Route 7"</code> @jJ RE: good examples – I agree, I think that this is likely the single largest reason why @summary is so poorly used today: content authors don’t understand how to use it. The summary value should give a synopsis of the overall structure of the table – a visualization as it were that would likely be obvious to a sighted user. A complex bus schedule would be a good example – lots of data that the non-sighted user could process more quickly if they previously understand the table structure:
<table summary="Service begins at 4:00 AM and ends at midnight. Intersections are listed in the top row. Find the intersection closest to your starting point or destination, then read down that column to find out what time the bus leaves that intersection.">

However some tables are so simple that a summary might not be required: remember @summary is an optional attribute – the ‘heads up’ I speak of would not always require additional action: the advisory however would ask you – content author- if there “might” be a need to do so.

The caption however is different, and is usually displayed on screen: it should describe the “what” of the table, and is useful for all users: an example of caption would be "Schedule for Bus Route 7"

]]> By: JimJJewett http://john.foliot.ca/talismans-active-listening-and-a-half-time-show/comment-page-1/#comment-50 JimJJewett Fri, 14 Aug 2009 02:16:34 +0000 http://john.foliot.ca/?p=111#comment-50 "To my thinking, any data table that does not include summary or caption or details or any summarization of any kind, using any of the available methods should generate a ‘heads up’" But that again brings up the problem of needing more good examples. My tables almost always have a single row of th cells along the top. The first column may be (but isn't always) entirely th cells. There are no other th cells. Should I really add a caption that is just a repeated (and therefore error-prone in case of revisions) version of the table headers? If so, that is so unexpected that it needs to be said explicitly. -jJ “To my thinking, any data table that does not include summary or caption or details or any summarization of any kind, using any of the available methods should generate a ‘heads up’”

But that again brings up the problem of needing more good examples. My tables almost always have a single row of th cells along the top. The first column may be (but isn’t always) entirely th cells. There are no other th cells.

Should I really add a caption that is just a repeated (and therefore error-prone in case of revisions) version of the table headers?

If so, that is so unexpected that it needs to be said explicitly.

-jJ

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